The Only Thing People Saved by the Blood of the Lamb Have to Worry About

Angel Wings

My Thought this Sunday

I am far from a theologian or born again BUT I still dedicate this to all my brothers and sisters who picked up the cross and followed Him ( btw, where else outside of church would that be appropriate to say anything about blood of lambs :P )The only two questions you ever need to ask anytime you exercise the greatest gift you have: free will

Am I doing this for the Glory of God, in full knowledge that God is present in this moment with me? Am I expressing this through living out the second commandment given unto me, that I shall love everyone as I do myself and doing these to even the least of my brethren?

or

Am I doing this for my own glory, greed vanity or pride?

I think ask yourself these two questions over the course of the next 24 hours, even when doing small things like stretching or tyeing your shoe laces will dramatically change the direction you take your life in.

Have a great Sunday,

Mwangi

No Comments

  • By kip, June 8, 2008 @ 1:14 pm

    The phrase “brothers and sisters who are crucified by the blood of the lamb” just made my day. Christians plus other religious believe the most insane things.

  • By Mwangi, June 8, 2008 @ 2:23 pm

    @kip: I do find it odd when Christians make fun of Buddhist beliefs in reincarnation (”You will come back as a dog,”) when we eat crackers and juice to represent the blood and body of “the lamb”.

  • By Mzeiya, June 8, 2008 @ 2:26 pm

    Kip, I reckon with matters religion it is always good to be tolerant. It is interesting though how a number of people who poke fun at Chrisitianity are usually the most spiritual when they are alone.

    I mean religion and one’s spirituality is always a sensitive subject. So we must all tread carefully on this post. My observation is that Africans are highly religious. In fact this fact has led to the emergence of dubious characters of cloth who have painted a bad image for the Church. Indeed miracles do happen but when a pastor starts telling naive Kenyans that for them to be cured of HIV they need to part with some money then something is wrong. The off shot of this is that a lot of people who are not born again get discouraged from going to Church.

    The Church back home also comes across as quite strict e.g. its stand on alcohol, dressing, associations etc. In the West ( again it may all depend on the denomination) but I almost got the sense that the Church here is really much more liberal on a number of issues.

    True Mwangi, if people factored in God’s will in whatever they do then a lot of good things would be happening. But I was even analyzing the role of Church in today’s politics and I realized that the Church can build you up especially politically. I mean Obama did a splendid job in distancing himself from the remarks of the Reverend without losing the rest of the Church’s support. It was almost like a risk because if that backfired on him that would not have looked good on him.

  • By Mwangi, June 8, 2008 @ 2:37 pm

    @Mzeiya: And that tolerance is definitely something that many churches down here do a lot more than churches back in Africa.
    I would be quite curious to see how many of those folks who went and parted money with pastors got cured because of the power of the placebo effect, from what I have heard, there are times when HIV is reversible and placebo is pretty powerful.
    I will probably write about this soon enough but one of the reasons that if I were to be classified I would be labeled “an agnostic” (though I am not a fan of the agnostic culture at all and prefer the label: “uncertain” or “ambiguous) is because of how Christianity always changes in character and practices and even beliefs depending on where you go.
    Back home I really felt that a lot of the message was “fire and brimstone” where we had to prostate before the might and fear the Lord so that we can run away from hell and the anti-christ whereas here a lot of the time God is like a consumer item who one can pray to to receive blessings when they please.
    Like in my bible study group, people really struggle with the idea that God doesn’t act in one’s life from a place of love whereas me and the other Kenyan in that group came into the group knowing that that is true………
    Anyway much to discuss.

  • By Mzeiya, June 8, 2008 @ 2:59 pm

    Placebo effect? Just had to look it up on wiki. Spiritual healing does occur but in the HIV chicanery none of the people who paid the lady pastor in Kenya got healed. I dont know what the judge decided to do with her after she was charged.

  • By Mwangi, June 8, 2008 @ 3:11 pm

    @Mzeiya: Should you get a chance do some heavy investigation on the placebo effect…it’s amazing some of the things that people can cure themselves of when they believe that they have taken a cure.
    That’s a shame that it didn’t work in the chicanery, perhaps it’s because HIV and AIDS are so complex and difficult to understand in terms of symptoms and effects that it would be hard to know whether you have been cured or not.

  • By kip, June 8, 2008 @ 6:19 pm

    @Mzeiya, I have zero religion. I’m accepting of religious people but I do not shy away from debating them on their faith.

    I think the highly religious nature of Africans is detrimental for us. It takes us away from our rational nature. The poor masses have their faith to keep them from despair, by accepting their fate as gods will. The enterprising few have made money by starting churches, recording gospel albums etc. The rich don’t need religion, they have heaven on earth.

  • By Mwangi, June 8, 2008 @ 6:35 pm

    @kip: I actually disagree on a number of levels:
    1) Intuitively and from what I have seen observed, read etc etc, we as human beings are essentially irrational creatures who use our rational faculties to get what we usually irrationally desire i.e. we use our knowledge, judgment, reasoning etc to get us what we love, what we are passionate about and what makes us feel good.
    2) I think the church is one of the very few threads holding our society together by directing our passions and hearts in a more constructive direction i.e. the Christian values and beliefs. Sure we don’t always practice what the faith teachers, actually a lot of the time we don’t, but I am often comforted by the fact that the Church at least gives us a moral compass.

    As for the rich having heaven on Earth, I am sure you have heard of the rich people who go after money with all the intensity in the world and/or save a lot of money for retirement, get there and ask, “Is this all there is?” and end up depressed and disillusioned.

    Money is but a resource that is a means to an end, the end will always be way more important than the means, heck maybe your there already. I don’t want to make this a mini-post but I don’t want to leave that last statement as just some abstract thought:

    Once this self-help guru/teacher, I forget which one, went to visit Vegas. He was going, I believe, in search of some very wealthy tycoon up there in Vegas. He enters this tiny little store and begins a conversation with the just-getting-by-financially stor e owner and they eventually get to talking about this guy.
    The store owner says that he is actually extremely good friends with that guy. He says that once he used to have this well paying high stress job but he left it to start this tiny store that was just getting by. In spite of that he still lived the billionaire’s lifestyle because he went on skiing trips and all these displays of wealth.

    Secondly is think of Gandhi, his dislike for us black folk aside, the dude was essentially dirt poor but had the power that a lot of rich folk could only drool over.

    Finally check out this story from Mo Ma’s blog. Might just blog about this in future:
    http://momaalim.blogspot.com/2008/06/newest-favourite-story.html

  • By Mzeiya, June 8, 2008 @ 7:00 pm

    Kip, when you say you have zero religion where do you then turn to for spirituality. We all have to have some belief in a greater power.

    Again Kip as for the Church being just for the poor and money hungry, I beg to differ. Nowadays you actually get many wealthy people in the congregation.As much as religion is the opium of the poor methinks that since time immemorial political power- the highest form of finance- has revolved around state and church. Those who set up churches to enrich themselves are obviously not people worth emulating. I mean whats the joy in stealing in God’s name.

    Apart from spiritual guidance the Church promotes civil order thus assisting the State in reducing deviance and destitution. They also shape the political thinking of the day. Politicians who get support from the clergy benefit quite a lot.

    The safety nets that the Church provides in the society more than outweighs any negative sentiments that some people may have.

  • By Mwangi, June 8, 2008 @ 7:03 pm

    @Mzeiya and Kip: Just to add a couple of points….isn’t one of the trademarks of American and even African Christianity how pro-rich it is, i.e. how much the church loves to support, and receive support, from folks with deep pockets.
    The church definitely has created some fantastic safety nets that have been uber beneficial including:
    a) The work of the Salvation Army
    b) Mentoring young people and engaged couples
    c) Comforting and counseling the depressed, distressed and disillusioned.

  • By kip, June 8, 2008 @ 9:34 pm

    @Mzeiya & Mwangi, there is no doubt that the corporate works of religious organisations have been beneficial. I disagree with both of you at a really basic level. I do not believe a God exists at all.

  • By Mwangi, June 8, 2008 @ 9:42 pm

    @kip: Indeed, a simple distinction but a powerful one I guess. You don’t believe….I do, but am not sure we are being told the whole truth or even have access to the whole truth about the nature of that which is outside nature.

  • By mwasjd, June 9, 2008 @ 5:37 am

    As one of them, I will answer that I try but I hardly meet the mark, still struggling with pride and worldly desires. Still I will try harder. Thanks for the inspiration and direction.

  • By Mwangi, June 9, 2008 @ 5:47 am

    @mwasjd: You’re very welcome. Let me know if it impacts on the way you go about life in any way.

  • By acolyte, June 9, 2008 @ 12:59 pm

    “Secondly is think of Gandhi, his dislike for us black folk aside, the dude was essentially dirt poor but had the power that a lot of rich folk could only drool over.”
    Ghandi may not have fought for black South Africans but this did not mean that he had contempt for them. Or do you have another source you would like to share with us?
    - Africans are religous but most of them are not spiritual. Religion without Spirit goes nowhere.
    Plus there is a limit to the power of placebos. I do think a placebo combined with powerful thinking and positive living could have some effect but this is not in everyone. The power of our minds differs from person to person.

  • By Kelly, June 9, 2008 @ 3:07 pm

    ‘Crucified by the blood of Jesus’!! Lol, the phrase is ’saved by the blood of the lamb’:) I think living our lives for the glory of God (for those that believe He exists) should be our reason for being, but it’s also the hardest thing to do, and so is loving the next guy more than we love ourselves.All in all, we try!

    This debate on whether God exists or not, is kinda deep for me, in matters religion, I choose to believe, not because there is a heaven or hell, or because Christians are right and everyone else will burn in hell’, but because believing in God makes me a better person (or so I think).

  • By Mwangi, June 9, 2008 @ 5:58 pm

    @acolyte: Excellent point, a lot of us ARE religious i.e. know how to follow rules that help our lives but in general we are a very materialistic people.
    I read about Gandi’s racism initially from a couple of blogs a while ago but this article though hard from objective pretty much lays out some of the statements which folks use as foundation….have a lot of respect for the man, but just don’t know if I could hang out with the dude if this is true: http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=2419
    As for the placebo effect, it does vary based on so many circumstances, after all in some tribal communities didn’t some folks die simply because of “the pointing of the bone” or “evil eye” or “being cursed by other people” (which we of course still believe in).And don’t folks die quicker when they know and have accepted that the disease will kill them? So in short, it definitely varies but I am constantly amazed by its power.

  • By Mwangi, June 9, 2008 @ 6:01 pm

    @Kelly: Very pragmatic belief. The idea of hell has always bothered me. My hope is that when it’s all said and done, hell was just a hallucination in the mind of John or something the Catholic Church made up to keep poor folk in line. Otherwise, the joint will be the most crowded room in the house.
    I think a way of looking at the way my beliefs work is I believe in a God, but I just don’t have as much faith in the folks who put the bible together. After all, isn’t the Vatican church one of the wealthiest institutions on Earth….how much of that money-seeking, power-seeking agenda seeped into the compiling of the good book I sometimes wonder.

  • By Kelly, June 9, 2008 @ 6:33 pm

    @Mwangi, I hear you on the good book issue. It especially doesn’t help when the religious tell you that you should seek to understand it with the ‘heart’ and not the mind. That, I’m yet to achieve.

    About hell, my mum seems to think it’s there (again thanks to her firm belief in the good book), but my rational mind hasn’t yet wrapped itself around that idea, and whats the criteria of admission anyways?

    If there is a hell, my rational thoughts will probably land me there, but well…
    About the money motive in the church, I think I should do a post on my experiences as a ’saved’ Presbyterian.

  • By Mwangi, June 9, 2008 @ 6:45 pm

    @Kelly: That post sounds like it’ll be quite the read so am looking forward to your story. When I got baptized – at 13 no less-unfortunately my only motive was because getting saved the week before, ” felt like the right thing to do,” and I wanted an after party (not a very PC one at that)
    Even when we seek to understand with the heart, its grossly unfair that someone should craft a perfect being in his image, create urges to sin within him, knowing before hand he will sin and send him to hell, when there was always the possibility of his not existing and not inflicting pain upon others.
    One of the problems with the faith is that it isn’t very clear what gets you to hell or heaven, some say its just faith, some say its just your actions….I think its your thoughts, action and faith all rolled into one but apparently there’s debate.

  • By Carol, June 9, 2008 @ 11:10 pm

    Kelly, you are right me too,I know believing has made me a better person. In this world where there are so many believes, I just try to hold on to what I learnt since.Now that I was saved by the blood of the lamb, I know that I should love my friends regardless of their believes, practices and religion but for who they are.

  • By Mwangi, June 9, 2008 @ 11:15 pm

    @Carol: That’s a pretty cool attitude you are taking to the faith. You know I think a lot of Christians may get a bad rep, but its amazing how many Christians are open, loving and non-judgmental of people from other faiths….winning people over with their capacity to love rather than with rejection, damnation, criticism and logically cutting them down

  • By Kelly, June 9, 2008 @ 11:25 pm

    Sorry if this sounds preachy, but I remember a song from them days: ‘They shall know we are Christians by our love…’ I wonder how many Christians actually practise this.
    Instead of encouraging people to be human, and believe in the forgiving grace of God, the church instead urges us to pretend to be perfect, and give in tithes, while hating on everyone else who is not like us.
    Really sad.

  • By Mwangi, June 9, 2008 @ 11:32 pm

    @Kelly: In my opinion, that isn’t a reflection of the church as much as it is a reflection of the people in that church. It seems like there are always people in the church, whether the leadership or the old timers, who seem determined to viciously attack anything that makes them uncomfortable or goes against their beliefs, even people and this attitude sadly isn’t just confined to the church.
    In the church though, I must say, is where I have met the sweetest, most caring, most genuine, self-sacrificing angels among men, hands down.

  • By kenya.fm, June 10, 2008 @ 1:04 am

    Most of you guys (except acolyte), seem not to have a clear grasp of what you are talking about. My suggestion:- read the Bible first hand, and do not propagate what you have heard people say, and you have assumed is true.

    For example ( Mwangi): there is no such thing as “crucified by the blood of the lamb”

    And, Mwangi, you got it right. Most of the good places on earth are good because of the adherence to Christian ideals. ( of course a lot of evil has happened in the name of Christ). The Christians are the ones making the world a better place, believe it or not. Heard of Armageddon?-: that is what the world will be like with Christians taken out of the way

  • By Mwangi, June 10, 2008 @ 1:08 am

    @kenya fm: I know that, I was playing with words….Jesus is the shepherd who would leave his flock to find the one lost sheep, he is the lamb that was crucified and said before he carried the cross to Golgotha, that the bread is a symbol of his body and the drink is his blood…I know one is saved by the blood of the lamb, I was playing with words my friend.
    As for Armageddon, that thought makes me and a lot of Christians uncomfortable, and rightly so, most of humanity was born with the eventual destination of going to hell. I agree though, the principles of Christianity are unquestionably positive, difficult but positive.

  • By kenya.fm, June 10, 2008 @ 1:30 am

    I see, play of words, succeeded in getting me to comment. Wise boy:)

    But, how many of your readers do not know that? See the comments. Next time they will be heard saying “Christians believe that they are crucified by the blood of the lamb”

    Same way you have heard people say that the bible says:”God helps those who help themselves”.

    I know i have no right suggesting how you blog, but i think it is safe to always put a little disclaimer or small print about such items.

  • By Mwangi, June 10, 2008 @ 1:32 am

    @kenya: For you…..done :D
    I have no idea where that “God helps those who help themselves” came from ( I have it on the tip of the tongue, I’ll comment if I remember it) but for the longest time even I believed it was in the bible.
    Watch the post change in about two minutes.

  • By kenya.fm, June 10, 2008 @ 1:41 am

    For me? Thou dost flatter me. Anyhow. Seems, to me, my friend, you have regard and respect for the Lord. May you be persuaded one day that you are better off with Him, and not without Him.

    What is/is not in the Bible:
    You would be amazed at the stuff that pass for Christian doctrine. Most, are just plain people’s preferences, that do not matter to God in the least.

  • By Mwangi, June 10, 2008 @ 1:45 am

    @kenya fm: You never know…one of the things I sometimes fantasize about is starting up a male church just for African boys and making it an action oriented church where every single service ends with us going into the community as a church body and doing some good for this world….the moment just doesn’t feel right, but who knows…..

  • By Kelly, June 10, 2008 @ 3:47 pm

    Interesting discussion once more. My question to Kenya fm, how do you know for sure that the Bible is truly God’s word? What about areas that it seems to contradict itself?
    What really matters to God in our Christianity?

    I’m not questioning your beliefs (I too believe and all), but I find that when you analyse Christianity rationally, there are some things that you just believe blindly (no rational explanation).
    Mwangi, I hear you on the action oriented Church. For the most part, the church today focuses on ‘feeding’ itself and it’s people spiritually(and materially), with little impact on the community. I can only think of one or two churches in NBI, that even reach out to other faiths and all.
    Are our churches attractive enough (in our actions) for people out there to want to be part of us, or are we so busy looking and feeling righteous, that we end up alienating everyone else?
    BTW, by church I mean, all of us, the Christian body.

  • By Mwangi, June 10, 2008 @ 6:12 pm

    @Kelly: I was actually quite surprised in my younger years to hear somewhere, to be honest by now I don’t know if it’s true or just Internet speculation, that there is a book of biblical difficulties that was apparently written by the Catholic Church which apparently lays out some of the “areas that need correction”.
    Indeed, I think whichever way we chose to look at it, we must practice some selective ignorance and focus on particular parts of the good book (hence the reason preachers like to joke that everyone always like the loving New Testament God much more than the wrath filled Old Testament one who used to strike people down for the smallest of things – looking back at Sodom and Gomorrah, touching the Ark of the Covenant, cursing Eli because of the actions of his son, taking folks out of Egypt and making them wander and die in the desert for worshiping idols, didn’t he know they would do this before calling Moses out).
    You know I just learned this year about the word ” the body” when I was doing research for my article on Kirk Franklin, I love that, everyone who believes in God is part of “the body of Christ”.

  • By Kelly, June 10, 2008 @ 6:44 pm

    Yeah, everyone who believes in God, is part of the body. One song that challenges and preaches to me is this
    Casting Crows lyrics page
    Beautiful song. I hear you on the New testament / Old testament thing, I bet most African men will like the old testament polygamous thing. :)

  • By Kelly, June 10, 2008 @ 6:47 pm

    It’s by Casting Crowns, not counting crows

  • By Mwangi, June 10, 2008 @ 7:08 pm

    @Kelly: I found the Youtube video too: http://youtube.com/watch?v=z4wojcSO9Ww
    Don’t even get me started on polygamy. I think anyone who is authoritarian and aggressive at the core loves the old Testament, with the walls of Jericho, the epic battles and so on and so forth….the main guy behind the New Testament, Paul was more like a new age sensitive guy who liked to write a lot of poetry.

  • By kenya.fm, June 12, 2008 @ 12:54 am

    @kelly

    For an answer of your question to me, see my answer titled: That the Bible is the word of God? Give me a break! It is found here:
    http://kenya.fm/?p=45

    If you still have questions, let me know

  • By Kelly, June 12, 2008 @ 1:58 am

    @kenya fm, it’s not about giving you a break, it’s about knowing how to explain to those that don’t believe, what exactly it is we believe. The problem mostly with evangelism, is we tend to take that attitude, and what it does is alienate other faiths instead of actually enlightening them.
    I wasn’t attacking you, just challenging you which I think is healthy

  • By Mwangi, June 12, 2008 @ 2:39 am

    @kenyafm: Lol! Our sites are twins! I will peruse through your article and let you know what I think.

  • By kenya.fm, June 12, 2008 @ 6:22 am

    @kelly
    Have you really read the post? if you have you will realize that that is exactly what i am doing-trying to explain what you asked.

    @Mwangi
    its is your site that prompted me to use the theme. it is easier on the eyes.

  • By Mwangi, June 12, 2008 @ 5:35 pm

    @kenyafm: I remember listening to a sermon by Erwin Mcmanus in which he said (I am paraphrasing and adding my own stuff to the mix), the choice as to what to believe is true, often isn’t a choice between truth and lie, but rather in choosing who to trust.
    I think a lot of us chose to automatically believe the Bible is true, as is our birth certificate, because we trust our parents and we trust that the people around us are just like us.
    Interesting point though…..unless we’re there we’ll never really know. Hence the reason that me and Kelly are talking about the possible invalidity of the Bible due to the fact that the people who wrote it – people in power – have historically proven not to be trust worthy irrespective of whether they cloak themselves in religion or not.

  • By kenya.fm, June 13, 2008 @ 3:14 am

    The bottom line is this:
    - 2000 years from now, people may doubt your birth certificate…
    -the bible is a guide, the proof of what it claims can only be known by the believer, and not another external person to that believer
    -assume the Bible were true as a book and that all that is recorded represent true events. Still, no one can ever convince another person that what it says about God’s intentions for man is real. They, and only they, can know that for sure.
    -one either believes or not (and as such, no one should force belief on anyone-God does not. And again, believers should not stop informing others that there is a God-is-good-and-He-wants-you-to-be-his-son option )

  • By Mwangi, June 13, 2008 @ 3:53 am

    @kenyafm: I think you misunderstand what me and Kelly are trying to say. Our argument stems from the simple fact that out of all the dead sea scrolls and writings that were written about Jehovah, his prophets and followers, Christ and his followers and prophets, some were selected and others were discarded by a bunch OF MEN. Men, who may have had their own agendas aside from the eternal salvation and continued prosperity of all mankind, as was evidenced by the way the Vatican treated the common man through a lot of history. We are not discussing the contents of the book or the validity of what is written in the Bible, I am just uncertain about the way the book was put together. That was basically what me and Kelly were discussing, unless of course, I misunderstood Kelly.

  • By kenya.fm, June 13, 2008 @ 4:28 am

    Perhaps i misunderstand both if you. My posit is that, true or not, ONLY the concerned individual can tell what he knows about God.

    I am under no illusions that the books have not been tampered with. But suppose indeed the books were ALL tampered with, what are we gonna do with about it? Re-write the book, or discard the whole book, or discard some portions of the book? How can you get everyone to agree on what actions to take?

    The Bible had said that ( OK, in your case, assume that portion is true ) a time would come when God was gonna write his laws (the Book) into people’s hearts. I believe we are in those days. If He has written into your’s heart, who can ever tamper with that? But woe unto those who only depend on book’s that can be changed at will.

    NB: as a guideline for those who seek what is legit/original and what is added, a starting point is the old Jewish writings (the so called old testament)

  • By Mwangi, June 13, 2008 @ 4:34 am

    @kenyafm: Hmm, interesting question. If the Bible were tampered with and was a book of falsehoods, then that would discredit everything you and I believe. I think when you come to a country like Oz is when you realize that not everyone has a God-shaped hole…and even those who do, when the hole is filled, they do not receive an eternal peace that surpasses all understanding for all eternity, they still have the same problems other people do, still feel the same negative emotions, in short, they still have problems and go through bad times. The reason that I don’t delve too deeply into whether or not, the Bible was composed by power-hungry clerics to propagate their power is because in so doing I would be undermining one of the strongest foundations I have ever known, in myself at least. So I guess, to some extent, I don’t really want to know the truth, hypocritical as that may sound. Sometimes I do, but right now, not really.

  • By Kelly, June 13, 2008 @ 4:58 am

    @Mwangi, I agree, we’re on the same page on this one. Suprisingly, it’s not in the Oz that you’re faced with the challenges, even here it’s all the same.
    One thing I have chosen to do (I could be right or wrong) is to believe in God and right and wrong period. I am not a Bible waving Christian, because I don’t think I have the depth required to fully defend it, but I read the word.
    Again I gave up on trying to rationalise where it came from, but instead I let the love I see, nature and my soul ‘preach’ to me.
    Again I could be wrong.

  • By Mwangi, June 13, 2008 @ 5:03 am

    @Kelly: As a child who would have thought that one day ” the truth” you would arrive at would be an agnostic, uncertain one? I have so many questions in the after life….so many!

  • By Kelly, June 13, 2008 @ 5:10 am

    Mwangi, as a child I was so trusting, and just had faith. I wonder how this happened but well…
    I go to Church every Sunday, enjoy the service, but the core of it all is mostly hollow.
    Don’t get me started on the after life.

  • By Mwangi, June 13, 2008 @ 5:12 am

    @Kelly: Hey, we have already set the record for the longest comment thread in this blog’s history – and on such a short article, no less – get started, I am curious to hear…………..

  • By kenya.fm, June 13, 2008 @ 5:29 am

    @kelly
    You say “I wonder how this happened but well…
    I go to Church every Sunday, enjoy the service, but the core of it all is mostly hollow. ”

    I do not not always go to church, but i have a fulfilled life ( Does not mean things always work as i want or that i have no problems in life), but i feel so much peace and calm. Perhaps you should read my blog, it may answer your “I wonder how this happened”.

    @both
    About child’s faith
    Is that not what Christ said you should have? Something about “kingdom of heaven being for people with childlike faith” Why would you want to grow up on that? if you premise is :-there is a God, He is loving, Christ is his son, He sent him to give us life in abundance, God is good, then i see absolutely no problem.

    But if thee is doubt on any of the above, then of course, you will drift and be unfulfilled.

  • By Mwangi, June 13, 2008 @ 5:35 am

    @kenyafm: Don’t get me wrong, I am not really unfulfilled and searching. At the moment, I feel truly blessed and as though I am doing something good and positive in this world, at times I even say I am doing the Lord’s work.
    I think one other area where you and I disagree is that if the way the Bible was compiled was flawed, like say for example the Da Vinci code was right (not that I’m saying it was, I haven’t investigated enough to know) then that changes everything about Christianity.
    There are 1,500 denominations in the World Church Council alone, right now I am watching a show about the Church of Later Day Saints, there are rastafarians and so many other religions that see the same book, the same Christ and arrive at different conclusions and different ways of practicing that conclusion.
    In short, I think comfort with ambiguity and a knowledge that God has not fully revealed the truth to us in this life is neccesary regardless of whether you chose to be saved by the blood of the Lamb.
    You have really challenged me,

  • By Mwangi, June 13, 2008 @ 5:36 am

    @everyone: We have cracked the 50 comment mark and we are having a great discussion. Just thought I’d have another mini-celebration. Carry on…….

  • By Kelly, June 13, 2008 @ 6:12 am

    @Kenyafm, don’t get me wrong, I have the whole Christianity theory thing down, but there are certain issues I struggle with that reading more info wouldn’t sort. I’d call it a searching phase in my life. My Mum says the problem is that I seek to interpret everything rationally.
    Yes I do believe in God, and Jesus died to save me, and I do all I can to maintain a good relationship with Him (despite my very sinful human nature), which to me is the basis of salvation.
    When it comes to other matters of faith such as hell, heaven eternal damnation etc etc, then the confusion sets in. I don’t think reading the Bible would solve it, like I said earlier on this post and another post I did earlier, I just believe blindly…
    Of course there are other things, like, do we preach the Bible, or do we preach God’s love? that seem to really challenge the way the Church operated.

  • By kenya.fm, June 13, 2008 @ 7:47 am

    @kelly
    I think i get a little of what your difficulty is.
    You know what is taught in the Bible but have issues with totally depending on Christ in this life. I could be wrong.

    You say “certain issues I struggle with that reading more info wouldn’t sort”. True, more reading does not sort those things. A person (Christ) does sort issues for us. He has all power and is willing to. What is it that He can not sort out? Perhaps there are things you do not want to give up. If so, well, you just have to reach that point where you can say “U know what. I do not have to do this anymore.I am fed up!”

    We only know of ‘..faith such as hell, heaven eternal damnation..” from what the Bible says. So, if you do not believe it, then, you necessary must come up with another explanation for these things. Most people will simply say “It all does not exists. It is all in our heads..”.

    But what if it really does exists as it is described in the Bible, and you did not believe in it? You would be unprepared for it, when it finally comes. But if you believe in the after-life as described, what would you have lost in this life? Nothing. If anything, you would have gained the love of Christ. And the resulting peace. You will be amazed how those few things in life that we hold dear and that we find hard to let go, when we later look back, are really nothing but trash.

    If you “I don’t think reading the Bible would solve it”, where do you hope to have the answer? Let me tell you a possible scenario. Someone will come along, preach to you another Gospel that is not true ( e.g. one that does not require you to do much in terms of life changes, such as repenting and depending on Christ.) It will be appealing. You will believe it. But you will still feel no peace, no calm. You will still feel that your life is “so empty”. And should you want to go back to that “true Gospel”, it will be much more difficult.

  • By Mwangi, June 13, 2008 @ 9:33 am

    @kenyafm: To add another layer to this discussion, whereas there is indeed that part of us that always acknowledges that there is a truth higher than us, that part is not always automatically drawn to the Christian God. So, it’s not as simple as one day, God revealing himself to everyone and then they chose to live a lie. From what I have seen, its more like some people just never see what the fuss is all about and never ever feel or see what Christians practice as truth.

    In short, I am reinforcing my point above which basically says that by the looks of things not everyone has a Jehovah Jirah shaped hole in their heart and even once that hole is filled,the journey has only begun and not ended.

  • By Kelly, June 13, 2008 @ 5:58 pm

    @kenyafm, the reason I say reading the Bible wouldn’t help is more like what Mwangi wrote about earlier. More information doesn’t help always.
    Sometimes, the truth is more in your heart and all you need to do is search and I find it. I believe God works more in our hearts than in churches or through the Bible, again I could be wrong.
    @Mwangi, you’re right, and it can be a bit ‘bedazzling’ when you’ve been born again half your life, and all over a sudden, you start questioning. For us that know about Jehovah Jireh, I don’t think more preaching is what will help, rather, it’s just about searching within you and finding what your truth is.

    About the after life, I choose to just live my life here on earth well, because my mind cannot wrap itself around that concept as yet. If it’s there, well and good, if it’s not, well… My believing in God shouldn’t is not because I fear going to hell, it’s because believing makes me a better person here on earth.
    I have beef with preachers preach the ‘get saved or you’ll go to hell gospel’ because, does that mean if we can prove that there is no hell then there is no reason to believe??

  • By Mwangi, June 13, 2008 @ 9:20 pm

    @Kelly: There’s a huge difference I noticed in the way the gospel is preached out here as compared to the way we were taught at home. A lot of people at home did get born again out of fear of either hell or incurring the wrath of God and the hell and brimstone theology was alive and well.
    Here, the Gospel is much more palatable and always tries to meet people where they are.
    I agree, of course, the worst reason to accept God that is love into your heart is out of fear of eternal damnation, that just doesn’t gel right.

  • By kenya.fm, June 14, 2008 @ 1:13 am

    @kelly

    Are you born again? If so, then i think you have you moved away from your heavenly Father, hence that feelings you have. How does one deal with that? Just go back, like the prodigal son/daughter and say, “Father i have sinned. Do forgive and restore me…”. If you have never been born again, then see below.

    @Mwangi
    I heard you say before that you never had reason to be born again, and i found that interesting. Let me explain to you the core needs of this process.

    Why be be born again?

    When one comes of age, and looks around life, they may feel dissatisfied with their lives, and desires a new start. God has made a way for this new start. To start over, He invites you to join his family, hence the term being “born again”. He sets conditions to you joining Him, which include repentance of sins. In becoming a member of his family, you escape being far from Him ( hell ), hence the term “saved”. He then gives you unlimited access to His nature, also called the Holy Spirit. That means, you are empowered beyond measure, you can potentially do anything, and only you can limit yourself. The fringe benefits of this new life is that you get to enjoy peace, calm, power not to sin, etc.

    Obviously, then, if one feels okay, does not believe in the Jewish God, or has no desire for God’s friendship, or does not believe s/he has sin to repent of, they would not be born again. So, if a Muslim tells me, “Christ is not the way to the Father”, you can not argue with that, nor should he be pushed to believe that. If an atheist says “God is crap”, you can not argue with that. If an Oz man says, ” i have all i need, i do not need God”, you can not tell Him, “you are not really happy” or try to force something on him that he has no need of. Any forced belief is useless, and not according to the Father. The only “help” God needs from believers is to preach the Gospel, not to shove it on people ( of course sometimes it helps to jar people up with fire and brimstone-even Christ did it, but that is not the core reason to be born again).

    Bottom line: unless one reaches that point that they see a need for God ( mostly, or any of the above) they can not be truly born again.

  • By Mwangi, June 14, 2008 @ 2:06 am

    @kenyafm: Agreed! Though personally I don’t mind people who push the Christianity agenda hard. After all, if you believe you have truth in your hand that will save the world, I understand why you would exuberantly want to share it with all and sundry.

  • By Kelly, June 14, 2008 @ 2:22 am

    @Kenya Fm, how exactly have I turned away from God? By questioning what I believe? Anyways, I hear you all the same

  • By kenya.fm, June 14, 2008 @ 3:35 am

    @kelly

    Questioning is not the issue. Question as much as you want. I question all the time. But when i read statements such as “I go to Church every Sunday, enjoy the service, but the core of it all is mostly hollow.”, it seems to suggest you do not have peace, satisfaction. It seems as if all these Christian things do not make sense.

    I know that these come upon as especially if we have turned from God. By turning from Him, i mean, we do not live a life of obedience to Him.

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